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Post by wtf on Feb 3, 2007 0:03:51 GMT -5
Katrina Deaths Not Classified as Homicides
By Laura Parker and Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
(Feb. 2) - In a move that could complicate prosecutors' efforts to bring murder charges against a doctor and two nurses accused of euthanizing four critically ill hospitals patients during the panic after Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans coroner has decided not to classify the deaths as homicides.
Coroner Frank Minyard has told prosecutors the deaths of four elderly patients at Memorial Medical Center in the days after the Aug. 29, 2005, storm would remain unclassified, according to Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan, who is handling the case.
Jordan says the coroner's decision would not prevent his office from presenting the case to a grand jury this month. "We're just looking for the truth," Jordan says. "It's not an obstacle to the truth."
Jordan took over the case last summer from Louisiana Attorney General Charles Foti, who had publicly accused physician Anna Pou and two nurses, Lori Budo and Cheri Landry, of conspiring to deliver lethal injections of sedatives and morphine to the four patients in the flooded hospital. The three women were arrested last summer but not indicted.
Edward Castaing, Budo's attorney, says he has not seen the coroner's report.
"I'm not surprised there was no classification of homicide because there was no homicide," he says. "There was no murder. All the health care providers did was to work as hard as they could to treat sick people and save lives under Third World battle conditions."
Jordan says the coroner's conclusion could change depending on witness testimony before the grand jury.
"That's what he indicated to the prosecutors. If there's any additional evidence that would have a bearing on his classification, there is a possibility that would change," Jordan says.
Minyard could not be reached for comment. Kris Wartelle, spokeswoman for the attorney general, declined to comment on the matter.
However, Cyril Wecht, a forensic pathologist who assisted Minyard in the review of the Memorial case, says Minyard's conclusions "could be interpreted as an invitation for a grand jury" to conduct its own review of the evidence. Wecht adds that the coroner's scientific analysis then could be submitted with separate information developed by prosecutors concerning the specific actions and intent of the suspects.
"As far as I'm concerned," Wecht says, "there were high levels of morphine and (the sedative) Versed" in the patients' bodies. "There is no question that these drugs caused these deaths."
02/02/2007 07:02
Copyright 2007 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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Post by Steady Micro Aggressor on Feb 3, 2007 7:35:25 GMT -5
Interesting twist to that story.
Question? Did the four people euthanized want to be euthanized? That might be the relevant point of the case.
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Post by wtf on Feb 4, 2007 1:24:36 GMT -5
Interesting twist to that story. Question? Did the four people euthanized want to be euthanized? That might be the relevant point of the case. hmmmmm good question, but I remember listening to it on the news when the nurses and doctor were being charged... and the way I remember it is they were saying they had to leave the hospital and there was no way they could take them with them so they gave the drugs to kill them, because they knew they were going to die anyway... sort of like they did it for the patients as a favor... I don't know but this should be interesting to follow and see what happens...
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Post by Steady Micro Aggressor on Feb 4, 2007 8:48:04 GMT -5
wtf: hmmmmm good question, but I remember listening to it on the news when the nurses and doctor were being charged... and the way I remember it is they were saying they had to leave the hospital and there was no way they could take them with them so they gave the drugs to kill them, because they knew they were going to die anyway... sort of like they did it for the patients as a favor... I don't know but this should be interesting to follow and see what happens...
Well, looks like we had two options here for the pateints concerned. Death by drowning, or by lethal injection. Neither was a very appealing option which illustrates the horror and tragedy of Hurricanes.
Excepting family members, I'm not comfortable with one human making a life decision about another Human. That kind of decision weilds great power that's ripe to be abused. That said, This case is one of those rare ones where what's usual doesn't apply. Given what I've read, I'm not sure I could convict the doctor or nurse if I were a juror in that case. even if it was clear they gave these four patients the drugs that killed them.
What about the reverse situation? What if They save themslves leaving the people in question to die. What would the public think about that? Or, the staff could have stayed and everyone would have died.
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Post by wtf on Feb 4, 2007 14:18:23 GMT -5
when I have alil more time I'd like to discuss this further with ya, hospices helps people die every day...
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Post by Steady Micro Aggressor on Feb 5, 2007 6:53:00 GMT -5
wtf: when I have alil more time I'd like to discuss this further with ya, hospices helps people die every day...
That would be cool. I think we'd both have fun airing our opinions.
It looks like we agree on the specific issue with this thread. I have no issue at all with Coroner Minyard's decision. This was a very unusual case, I don't think applying the usual would be appropriate. If it were my decision, I wouldn't prosecute.
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Post by wtf on Feb 6, 2007 0:53:20 GMT -5
k well what do you think about hospice helping people die everyday? when hospice takes over your care they won't even let you take medication that may even prolong your life... my brother inlaw was under hospices care, and I remember being there when they first came to interveiw him about receiving hospice... they almost turned him down because he was on a medication "epinephrin", which is like adrenaline, he was receiving it to help keep his blood thin... the nurse had to call the doctor and have it changed to something else, because supposedly it could prolong his life... I remember getting with them too... saying you have got to be fucking kidding me, he's dying and you assholes are refusing to help him... he was getting so frail there was no way in hell he could of continued to run back and forth to his doctors anymore... and the last place he wanted to be was in the hospital... me and my sister took care of him at home, and he passed peacefully away august 26, 2002, surrounded by family... plus on january 6th a good friend and spiritual advisor of mine passed away... he was also in hospice care... that morning his wife couldn't get ahold of hospice, so she called me, of course I went over... he was already in a coma from lung cancer, but he really didn't seem like he was in that much discomfort, his wife of 47 years and all his children were around him enjoying their last hours with him... damn if the hospice nurse didn't show up and gave him morphine... morphine should never be given unless his respirations were at least 20 breathes a minute, which they weren't... it wasn't a half an hour after she gave him the morphine he passed away... I have seen nurses where I work, out refuse a doctors order to give morphine, because people's respirations were to low to give it, and they didn't want to be responsible for their death... and I have also seen residents at my work who wasn't coherant enough to say rather they wanted to be on hospice or not, but was still placed on it, I don't know if the family made the decision for them or what... and don't think for one minute that everyone is on their death dead who is on hospice, because I actually seen people live so long on hospice care that hospice dropped them... I think they only let you stay in their care for a year, then they drop you if your conditions stays the same... don't miss understand me here, my hat goes off to hospice because they are caring people, but they assist people with dying everyday...
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Post by Steady Micro Aggressor on Feb 14, 2007 15:19:46 GMT -5
Well, from a pure logic point of view, Hospice workers are exceeding thier authority with assisting people to die. I wasn't aware Hospice doesn't administer life extending drugs to it's patients. Is that in all cases?
I couldn't work in a Hospice setting. I'm not emotionally qualified for such a tough job.
I'm sure many decisions to place a patient in Hospice are based pn economic factors. I'm not condoning that at all. But I don't know what to offer up as a remedy.
I understand the points you're making. I recieved an education about Hospice programs, thanks.
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Post by wtf on Feb 15, 2007 9:23:55 GMT -5
Well, from a pure logic point of view, Hospice workers are exceeding thier authority with assisting people to die. I wasn't aware Hospice doesn't administer life extending drugs to it's patients. Is that in all cases? I couldn't work in a Hospice setting. I'm not emotionally qualified for such a tough job. I'm sure many decisions to place a patient in Hospice are based pn economic factors. I'm not condoning that at all. But I don't know what to offer up as a remedy. I understand the points you're making. I recieved an education about Hospice programs, thanks. yes da that's in all cases...
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Post by Steady Micro Aggressor on Feb 15, 2007 11:51:00 GMT -5
wtf: yes da that's in all cases...
Please forgive my ignorance about that. I guess it's logical. If one is placed in a setting to die comfortably, life extended drugs would be counterproductive.
Let me add another comment. Given the above, I could understand Hospice personel assisting in hastening death. I don't know if I condone it, but I can understand it.
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Post by wtf on Feb 15, 2007 14:40:09 GMT -5
wtf: yes da that's in all cases... Please forgive my ignorance about that. I guess it's logical. If one is placed in a setting to die comfortably, life extended drugs would be counterproductive. Let me add another comment. Given the above, I could understand Hospice personel assisting in hastening death. I don't know if I condone it, but I can understand it. you have a good point but in my brother inlaws case, the epinephrin wasn't given to prolong his life at all... it was more of a comfort measure... believe me at the point my sister called hospice in there was no saving his life, my sister was in denial for along time about her husbands illness... a few times I almost had to literally carry him to the doctors... he finally told my sister no more, I want to die... in my brother inlaws case I gave him the morphine that probably stopped him from breathing, but he was suffering... my sister thought I was overdosing him, and had me stop giving it to him, in two hours she was begging me to give it to him he was in so much pain... in my friends case I don't see why they couldn't let his family spend more time with him, he was comatose and he didn't seem to be in much discomfort, besides his body was shutting down slowly... if I was that nurse, for the family sake I would of let it be, not rush it... and you know I'm a strong supporter of the right to die, because me and you have discussed this before...
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Post by wtf on Feb 15, 2007 14:41:47 GMT -5
but I do agree with you them doctors and nurses were stuck between a rock and a hard place, I would of gave them the drugs too... they did what they thought to be civil...
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Post by Steady Micro Aggressor on Feb 16, 2007 8:43:53 GMT -5
wtf: you have a good point but in my brother inlaws case, the epinephrin wasn't given to prolong his life at all... it was more of a comfort measure... believe me at the point my sister called hospice in there was no saving his life, my sister was in denial for along time about her husbands illness... a few times I almost had to literally carry him to the doctors... he finally told my sister no more, I want to die... in my brother inlaws case I gave him the morphine that probably stopped him from breathing, but he was suffering... my sister thought I was overdosing him, and had me stop giving it to him, in two hours she was begging me to give it to him he was in so much pain...
in my friends case I don't see why they couldn't let his family spend more time with him, he was comatose and he didn't seem to be in much discomfort, besides his body was shutting down slowly... if I was that nurse, for the family sake I would of let it be, not rush it...
and you know I'm a strong supporter of the right to die, because me and you have discussed this before...
In the case of your brother in law, I cannot criticize your actions at all, honestly. There wasn''t going to be a good outcome to his case. I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing. That's not saying I would have either. If such a instance happens in my life, I'll let you know.
We have discussed the issue of the right to die before. It was fascinating exchange if I recall.
As far as the specific example of that nurse and your friend, I think she's guilty of murder. To just kill him off isn't right. The Family didn't suggest this nurse nurse off the guy. What gave her such authority, Or a doctor for that matter?
Right to die is so easily abused.
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Post by wtf on Feb 16, 2007 10:41:01 GMT -5
wtf: you have a good point but in my brother inlaws case, the epinephrin wasn't given to prolong his life at all... it was more of a comfort measure... believe me at the point my sister called hospice in there was no saving his life, my sister was in denial for along time about her husbands illness... a few times I almost had to literally carry him to the doctors... he finally told my sister no more, I want to die... in my brother inlaws case I gave him the morphine that probably stopped him from breathing, but he was suffering... my sister thought I was overdosing him, and had me stop giving it to him, in two hours she was begging me to give it to him he was in so much pain... in my friends case I don't see why they couldn't let his family spend more time with him, he was comatose and he didn't seem to be in much discomfort, besides his body was shutting down slowly... if I was that nurse, for the family sake I would of let it be, not rush it... and you know I'm a strong supporter of the right to die, because me and you have discussed this before... In the case of your brother in law, I cannot criticize your actions at all, honestly. There wasn''t going to be a good outcome to his case. I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing. That's not saying I would have either. If such a instance happens in my life, I'll let you know. We have discussed the issue of the right to die before. It was fascinating exchange if I recall. As far as the specific example of that nurse and your friend, I think she's guilty of murder. To just kill him off isn't right. The Family didn't suggest this nurse nurse off the guy. What gave her such authority, Or a doctor for that matter? Right to die is so easily abused. well the situation with my friend, I'll never tell his family... I'll be taking that secret to the grave with me...
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Post by Steady Micro Aggressor on Feb 19, 2007 23:40:56 GMT -5
wtf: well the situation with my friend, I'll never tell his family... I'll be taking that secret to the grave with me...
I'd concur. Communiction is important, but sometimes, somethings are better left unsaid. It was a no win situation.
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